Comment my DKP suggestion

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

V 2.0

How to recieve dkp
A member will recieve dkp by following:

• Joining raids to end game dungeons. The amount of dkp earned from respective dungeon is equivalent to the dungeons skill level and member limit. I request a list of balanced starting dkp to each raid dungeon in the game, with 20dkp for Zul’Gurub as base. Those points will be given to each member of the raid who takes part in raiding that dungeon for at least one hour. Would someone leave the raid by random reason or somehow get disconnected within that hour, he would get his starting dkp removed completely. If he during that time has bid for certain drops, he might get a negative dkp number.
  
• Killing one of the bosses of an end game dungeon. As with the starting dkp, it will be equivalent with the bosses difficulty to kill, but also to the attraction to the bosses respective loot. A boss who drops different set items which is important for certain classes is a more attractive target than other bosses who only drops random items. It’s important that every member of the raid will get his share of the dkp when a boss has been killed, but it’s also important that some members will ignore certain raids just for their attraction to another boss. I request a list of balanced dkp earned by killing each boss in the dungeon we’re currently aiming for. It must be taken in consideration each of the bosses’ drops and attraction to those drops and draw a parallell between attraction, difficulty and loot when creating the balanced dkp.
  
• Spending time in an end game dungeon. The starting time of the raid will always be noted and if a certain member would leave before it’s done, the time he leaves would also be noted. The amount of dkp earned by spending time in a dungeon can be calculated by a simple equation (time in hour * 5 = dkp). A raid that takes about four hours will give every member 20dkp (4h * 5 = 20dkp). If someone leaves after 2,5 hours, the time for that certain member will be noted and taken into consideration when giving away the time earned dkp. That member would then get a time dkp on 2,5h * 5 = 12,5dkp (rounded off down to 12dkp).

How to recieve a drop
A member will recieve a drop by following:

• Giving a dkp bid that would be at least equivalent to the starting bid on the desired drop. The starting bid is something the dkp master will come up with in advance by noting various rare and epic items which drops from a certain mob or boss in a certain dungeon. An epic drop will have a higher starting bid than a rare drop. A common green, white or gray drop will cost no dkp at all and a legendary orange drop would cost an insane amount of dkp. Would an item drop which no one in the raid has enough dkp to afford bidding for, a member would still be able to bid the starting bid and recieve a negative amount of dkp by doing so. It’s also possible to create an auction for a certain attractive drop by raising the starting bid. There would though be a limit on how much a bid can increase to exactly three times the starting bid. A starting bid for a blue item on 5dkp could therefore increase to a maximum of 15dkp, while an attractive epic with a starting bid on 75dkp would be able to increase to 225dkp at maximum. If the bids are being even among more members, those will roll for the item.
  
• Earning an item by a random roll due to class restrictions. Some items are restricted to certain classes, or just more fitting certain classes. If a member wishes to bid for an item restricted to his class, it would work the same as the common dkp bidding in the statement above. Though the only difference would be that if the biddings are none or equal, the roll would only be between the members that can actually use the item in question. If one of those members already has the item or simply passes on it because he has something better, he will be ignored in the roll.
  
• Earning an item by a random roll. When no one desires to bid for an item, it will be randomly distributed to a member that can actually use it. For example would a wand never be randomly distributed to a warrior as long as there are casters within the group. Though when no one wishes to bid for an item, and it gets randomly distributed, the one who recieves it won’t get any form of dkp reduction. This is how it always works for green, white and gray items since they cost no dkp to begin with. It is possible for a member to get a good epic item for free just because no one wants to spend enough dkp to bid on it. Though if you would bid, the chances that you will recieve the item would increase.

Worth adding is that items that are Bind on Pickup will only be randomly distributed to those who can use it, or to an enchanter for disenchanting – while items that are Bind on Equip can get randomly distributed to someone who wants it for another character or to sell it for gold. Though those who actually wants the item for using always gets first in line for the rolls. Something else that’s worth mentioning is that an experienced player should look up certain rare and epic drops and give them all a balanced starting bid which will work together with the amount of dkp someone can earn by doing a certain dungeon. Low starting dkp in a dungeon of high difficulty is as bad as high starting dkp in a dungeon of low difficulty.

Regarding outsiders
Those who are not part of the alliance and are only in the raid to fill the group, will get dkp as anyone else. Though if they wouldn't join any other of our raids during a three weeks period, their dkp would be removed from our lists. Would they come back after three weeks and want to join another of our raid, they would have to start over from the beginning.

Comments on this so far?

[Drakarm Gorwrath]

all in all in looks farly solid,its just the passing on items thing that bothers me..

say for insatnce a UBER pair of boots droped with + healing up the wazzu

now its starting at 40 DKP bid,but no priest or healer wants it becase it costs so much,they wanna save for a UBER weapon instead..

so then the item that whold help the raid on awhole is lost becase people are hordeing DKP

for exsample,"why shold i spent all my on that shield that droped?
shield doesnt help me solo grind in any way shape or form..ill think ill let a shaman have it so i can get that cool two hander that drops later"

so now iv passed on a great shield that whold reduce my damege taken and in turn reduce healing and on the whole improve the raid

i think there are some items that are needed by a class with a cetian spec and shold be allocated thusly without spending DKP
to avoid DKP hordeing besides that its all good IMO

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

I understand what you mean, and I partially agree. But Pass DKP would be given to some more new players to faster get higher DKP by passing on items, or just for oldies to help the newcomers get more loot. But it's free for speculation. It might not be a good idea.

[Miriah El'Ubris]

Hmm, my guild on my old server used DKP also, and the rules were quite similar to this. Guild leaders didn't get bonuses, however, class leaders and the raid leader did instead.

Aside from that, the only difference of note was this passing thing... I'm not sure why someone of another class would want to spend their DKP on an epic they can't use. We did it so that, if everyone of the class passed on a class item because they were hoarding for something else it went to a roll between those who still needed it anyway. That way the item went to a player who could use it and hence benefitted the whole raid.

For class items that no-one actually needed, they were sharded and sent to the guild alliance bank, which was open to anyone in the raid for enchanting regeants, core leather etc. The strongest members got priority on those things, then class leaders, then everyone else.

Meh, that's just how we did it. I thought it might be at least worth saying. ;P

[Boraga]

I think that this will work.. Maybe with some adjustment in order to solve that issue Drak noted.

Other than that, I'm not fully persuaded by those 5dkp you earn if you pass the item.. But it could work, we just have to wait and see!

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

I spoke to a friend of mine yesterday who told me about a theory of getting DKP of drops, and that's how I came up with the Pass DKP. But since I agree with you, that it might be just weird to have, I shall remove it. So I`ll edit the post without that topic now.

[Miriah El'Ubris]

Other than that, I'm not fully persuaded by those 5dkp you earn if you pass the item.. But it could work, we just have to wait and see!

*grin* It does work, actually... well, after someone skips on their class bracers and then wins their helm about half an hour later due to being the one with the most DKP. That tends to make people more inclined to consider passing. ;D

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

miriah said:

Other than that, I'm not fully persuaded by those 5dkp you earn if you pass the item.. But it could work, we just have to wait and see!

*grin* It does work, actually... well, after someone skips on their class bracers and then wins their helm about half an hour later due to being the one with the most DKP. That tends to make people more inclined to consider passing. ;D

That was kind of the point. Those with high DKP might pass on items (giving them to those with lower DKP) to save up for a certain epic drop with high DKP bid.

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

I added the post with two more topics:

Punishments for breaking the rules

When the DKP master is absent

[Eriminia Mondard]

Yeah, the system you came up with looks pretty alright. Only, I don't think it's the guild leaders that should be getting the bonusses, rather as Miriah mentioned, the ones that are doing the extra work in the raid. Raidleader sould get bonusses from handling all dkps and keeping the raid together, and class leaders should get smaller bonusses. Those probably would pretty much the guildleaders though.

Then there's the thing about the greenie drops, I think most of the raidcommunities only use dkp for epics, and the greens (which no-one should need at that point) at least are automatically handed to tanks to cover the extra repaircosts.

Also, when item no-one wants drops.. it could indeed be disenchanted and the materials stored in guildbank (well, communitybank in the case) for fireresistance enchanments (for MC) etc... Also some of teh greenies coul fall in here, for the enchanting materials.

Also one thing.. I think we should have somekind of roof on how much dkps you can have, it would make people use them more, instead of hoarding them. And the old members wouldn't be too much ahead then, and also the newcomers would be able to get something.

And lastly, the items... There's always endless dispute on who should get to bid on what and with what priority. Making lists about those items takes a long time and it's hardly ever something everyone agrees on. The simplest thing would be to have anyone able to use an item, also able to bid on it, without any priorities. Then again, I'm afraid there will be some feelings hurt with this as well.

[Eriminia Mondard]

admin said:

What is DKP?

Punishments for breaking the rules
As we are strict RP guilds within the alliance, it's only natural that we have strict rules how the members should behave during the raid. If someone for example, would go out of character in /say, /yell or /emote - he would get a punishment of perhaps -5 DKP, and a message in raid chat saying "<name> has recieved a 5 DKP reduction because of breaking the rules". Though it might sound harsch I believe it would be good to keep up a good roleplaying mood even during the epic farming hours. The same punishments would be given to people that goes AFK for longer periods without telling the raid about it first, to people who constantly bunnyjumps and people who misbehaves in different ways.

Have to say I'm not a big fan of punishments like this. Maybe the raidleader should have this option as a last resort, but those -5s really shouldn't be given at whim. RP:ing in instances is rare as it is (sure we can have some of it sometimes), but to start bossing around with penalties the minute someone goes ooc, creates only bad blood in the community.

Now being late from the scheduled start again... that should call for minus dkps in my opinion. Also to everyone who thinks "hey warlocks around, they can summon", but while generally I don't mind summoning PUGs that much - having scheduled starting time means that you have plenty of time to get there yourself and you're just being lazy if you need a summon.

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

eriminia said:

Yeah, the system you came up with looks pretty alright. Only, I don't think it's the guild leaders that should be getting the bonusses, rather as Miriah mentioned, the ones that are doing the extra work in the raid. Raidleader sould get bonusses from handling all dkps and keeping the raid together, and class leaders should get smaller bonusses. Those probably would pretty much the guildleaders though.

Since I believe that officers and guild leaders are above other members -->IC<-- (plus that I want some loot *grins*) I decided to give bonuses to the ones that works as officers for respective guilds, since it should be only natural that those are also officers for the raid. Though we could also have class leaders which gives a small extra bonus (+5/10 DKP or something) despite their guild rank. Currently Drakarm (who is guildless) is considered an officer (not guild leader) and has a Rank DKP on 25. But since it'd most probably be him who is leader of the warrior class, he could also have a Class leader DKP on 5/10 and therefore get even more DKP.

eriminia said:

Then there's the thing about the greenie drops, I think most of the raidcommunities only use dkp for epics, and the greens (which no-one should need at that point) at least are automatically handed to tanks to cover the extra repaircosts.

I was thinking that every item that's either blue or purple would cost DKP. Blues would have a small cost and purple a higher cost. Really rare drops could have such a high cost that only the most dedicated members with highest DKP could be able to bid on them. Green/white/gray items wouldn't have a DKP cost and would be randomly distributed. Though I don't think it's fair for the other members to give them to the tanks only, since tanks in general can use more items and can probably bid on more drops.

eriminia said:

Also, when item no-one wants drops.. it could indeed be disenchanted and the materials stored in guildbank (well, communitybank in the case) for fireresistance enchanments (for MC) etc... Also some of teh greenies coul fall in here, for the enchanting materials.

I believe banks will be very necessary to store reagents. But since we are crossguild, we will need to work on how to manage a banking system which members from all guilds can have access to.

eriminia said:

Also one thing.. I think we should have somekind of roof on how much dkps you can have, it would make people use them more, instead of hoarding them. And the old members wouldn't be too much ahead then, and also the newcomers would be able to get something.

Perhaps we can have a DKP roof on 500 and when a member reaches that roof, he can no longer save up more DKP. I don't believe even the most legendary drops would have a starting bid on more than 500 DKP, so it can be a reasonable roof.

eriminia said:

And lastly, the items... There's always endless dispute on who should get to bid on what and with what priority. Making lists about those items takes a long time and it's hardly ever something everyone agrees on. The simplest thing would be to have anyone able to use an item, also able to bid on it, without any priorities. Then again, I'm afraid there will be some feelings hurt with this as well.

There will always be items which everyone can bid on, but many items are easy enough to see what class it fits the most (on the stats for example) and ask them to bid for it first. If they don't want to bid, the other will have their chance. Or it might get freely distributed to those who actually can use it.

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

Edited the first post with a new topic:

DKP roof

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

I posted my suggestion to more experienced players and I got some negative response which must lead to a total remake (almost). First of all, Rank DKP will be removed. Starting DKP and Boss DKP will be overviewed by an experienced player who know how big a difference there are between the bosses and dungeons. The temporary DKP for outsiders will be remade. According to other people, this is a "i want DKP so I can become purple" system and not a fair DKP system which will benefit the raid (and not some individuals).

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

I have rewritten it completely now.

[Eriminia Mondard]

I read the new version now. So basically the rank dkp has been remove which is good IMHO (because earning loot is very OOC and IC ranks shouldn't matter). But I do think that raidleaders deserve a bonus in dkp because of their extra work handling the dkps, bids etc... Also I saw on the first paragraph, that you if the person left before he could be in minus dkps. Does that mean that you would add to the dkps before going to instance? The only thing that you should add IMHO is the starting dkps, since it's much more work to start calculating the others during the run. But that's maybe what you meant as well?

I'm not sure about rolling for the whitestuff either, unles it goes quickly. I think that the ML could just loot and sell them himself. Afterwards distributing the money among the members somehow. In that , we should take into consideration that some jobs cost more than others, like the tanks. It's their job to take damage, and that means their armour is going to losing points more than others'. About the other jobs.. can't really say to be honest.

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

Hmm... well, we could give grays to the tanks since many grays gives alot of money. But how much bag slots do they have to fill up on everything? We can just ignore whites and grays unless the whites are important reagents for various professions.

[Eriminia Mondard]

And have to add something according to the items, who gets to bid and what. I know about a raid community that has suffered much from these arguments, resulting in some leaders leaving it. Basically on should the palas get the priority on Azuresong Mageblade, with mages of course. Now I know we will not have palas , but I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a load of items which will give us similiar problems. That's why I think we should keep it as simple as we can, without too many restrictions.

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

If a 2 handed axe drops, there won't be any problem in who we will let bid for it. On the other hand if various cloth armor drops, the problem is bigger. Will only warlocks, only priests or only mages roll for it? Or will all be able to roll for it? I have already checked up all rare and epic drops for the first three bosses in ZG. There are epic drops like Flowing Ritual Robes, Mar'li's Touch, Runed Bloodstained Hauberk, Fang of Venoxis and Jeklik's Crusher. All those items will be decided in advance exactly who is allowed to bid on it and what their starting bid will be. The various blue items that drops on those bosses will cost a cheap price on at least 2dkp to at most 20dkp (Talisman of Protection). When we have a list of attractive items, there won't be any problems with who will bid/roll and how much dkp they would cost.

[llyrenn]

I went on a raid to ZG with the Ashen Order last Tuesday (along with Caernwych). Their system is a lot simpler:

Master Looter decides who gets the items based on discussion and rolling.

Everyone who needs it rolls, but the raid leaders decide who is allowed to roll/who gets priority. for example a gorgeous dagger with int, spi, +spell damage/healing and mana regen (fang of venoxis) dropped, and all casters were allowed to roll on it. I rolled 83 and lost to a roll of 90 ... ARGH! There is no DKP involved.

Then later on if another caster item drops, the person who won the first is put behind the rest in priority, i.e. he is allowed the item if no other caster wants it, but if other casters want it then he isn't allowed to roll.

If a great tanking item drops then the priority goes to the main tank if he wants it. It's basically a system where the raid decides what will benefit the raid the most on future runs, and worked really well in this instance. A lot less complicated than dkp and the time taken after a boss is killed to decide who gets the loot was not too long, I assume with DKP there would be lots of working out who it goes to ...

I honestly don't care what system we use, as long as everyone is happy with it. I just thought i'd mention that one as an example of a non-dkp system that seems to work.

p.s. it's worth reading up the raid guides on www.wowwiki.com/Zul'Gurub for strategies and information so that we are more prepared when the great day comes and the Bloodpact rides into Zul Gurub.

[llyrenn]

the link doesn't quite work but i'm sure you can figure it out

As for whites and other items. A problem i found on the zg run is that as part of the quests you need to collect certain items, Bijous, Coins etc. As a healer i was always away from the mobs, and as soon as fights end i sit down to drink to prepare for the next. Because of this i didn't manage to pick up any loot or coins or bijous, the bodies were almost always looted by the time i got to them. I didn't really mind on that run because i was just happy to be there, but for our runs i think a system to deal with this would be a good idea, as it is more fair to all. Maybe find out who needs which items and distribute them at the end of the run ... i don't know.

[Manovan Marrowsteel]

Well, since I´ve gotten so much trouble with this dkp system I´m starting to have doubts myself. I will just make a simple poll whether we will have a system or just try out with a regular ML.